Are you depressed or just feeling sad? A rejoinder


I thank Jacob Smit, Michael Bennett and Alissa McCulloch for their comments in response to my article on depression (other, better, version here). This is a very important issue for university students, and a broad ranging debate is fitting. But I feel I have been misrepresented and would like to clarify some points.

Postmodernism - Jeremy Barme


First, for the record, I have experienced several depressive episodes in my life, and took counselling. I was never prescribed drugs. My motivation for writing is partially that my exit from ‘depression’ came after extensive self-reflection.

However, I entirely agree that medication has a big role to play in many instances of mental ill-health. I emphasise this in the closing paragraphs of my article. My father is manic depressive, and his condition improved remarkably after medication.



I do not undermine the possibility of ‘humane medicine’, in fact, I specifically emphasise humane medicine. Perhaps the reference to medicating cases of suicide, self-harm, anxiety disorders, manic depression and schizophrenia were insufficient to make my position clear on this count. Alas, such are the limitations of 500 word articles.

My intention was not to undermine the role of medication in treatment, merely to re-affirm the importance of reflection and counselling in cases of mental distress. I concede I did not go about this in an appropriately sensitive manner. My excuse is a poor one: in journalism it is suitable to say things in a slightly inflammatory way.

My concern is with lay understandings of depression, not those of psychiatric professionals. I underscore this in the very first sentence of the article: “it is increasingly common for laypeople to understand…” It is thus fitting that my use of the term is colloquial and not drawn directly from the DSM-IV. But I concede this was foolish, because I have muddied the waters when my intention was the opposite.

I understand the difference between depression and ‘feeling sad’; my concern is that laypeople do not.  The impetus for my article was a conversation. I mentioned that I was surprised by the length of a friend’s melancholia (I used the word ‘depression’) because of how obvious I thought the existential cause was. Another friend replied: ‘it’s a chemical imbalance, so it’s not like she can do anything about it.’


Depression has a use in common parlance that is distinct from the clinical definition. There is a consequent confusion in the general discursive space between melancholia and ‘bona fide’ depression. This leads to a situation in the discursive space where some in society at large understand the melancholic as powerless, pre-determined machines in need of repair.

They are ‘ill’; we are ‘healthy’. The possibility of society being flawed or unaccommodating rather than the individual is precluded. This is precisely the ‘othering’ that Smit and Bennett accuse me of. Yet what I’m doing by emphasising agency is giving back the human element and resisting othering. 

This is part of the reason why I find distressing the claim that my ‘prose harks back to the dark ages where hetero-normative, white, male power centres made you believe that depression was a moral/existential problem, involving weakness of character—best cured by simply “sucking it up”.’ 

I was attempting the very opposite. I emphasise that we should allow people a period of dysfunction rather than expect them to ‘suck it up’ by taking medication so they can ‘get on with things’. The overriding emphasis on functionality in Australian values obstructs any (existential) investigation of whether something is worth remaining functional at when it is causing you distress. 


Humans, contra beasts, are conscious. We can take a stand towards things. To understand mental illness as ‘nothing but’ a chemical imbalance ignores this element. It is dehumanising. It obfuscates the possibility of a human emotional reason for mental distress alongside a chemical cause.

What is the difference? When you chop an onion, you cry. Your tears are caused by a chemical reaction. They are different to the tears you shed when a friend dies; those tears have a reason.
If you are occupied in a stressful manner, perhaps you are doing a job you find morally repulsive (the reason), your body may cope chemically by increasing your heart rate, blood pressure etc (the cause). You may experience anxiety (the illness).

In this case, medicating the chemical factors may be the humane thing to do. It may eliminate the cause of the anxiety. It may very well be the correct prescription. But surely it is obvious that a course of reflection on your job and values might also help with your illness.

Values are not yet empirically accessible, and Australia’s cultural and philosophical understanding of them is in its infancy. So we turn to our extensive empirical knowledge of brain chemistry instead. This is sensible. But it should not result in us comprehensively removing the existential element in psychic distress from the lay discourse. This is why it worries me when laypeople understand depression as entirely a matter for doctors.

Drugs are the realm of doctors, and drugs have an important role to play in improving mental health. But surely sometimes an existential treatment is also needed, or even principally needed. Sometimes the patient cannot manage because they have no idea how to reflect on their life and identity. They cannot understand why their high status job might actually be killing them, for example.

A doctor, no matter how expansive their neurobiology knowledge, cannot give you an existential treatment. That is not their skill set. I am here paraphrasing Victor Frankl, a doctor and neurologist working throughout the 20th century, whose work is the main reference point for my thoughts. He emphasised the noetic (loosely ‘spiritual’) element in many neurosis, and empirically validated his theories.

I would like to take a moment to respond directly to the charge that I do not provide empirical validation for my arguments, as I thought it was a cheap shot. I have 500 words and I am not allowed references. Moreover, it is an opinion piece, not an article for a scientific journal or even for a philosophical one.
Furthermore, I tried to address the fact that the early psychoanalytic schools did not conform to strict scientific methods, such as randomised controlled testing, but that their findings are ‘backed up by mountains of case data and thousands of cured patients’.

While case data is certainly not of the same knowledge status as modern empirical studies, they do have a degree of validity as evidence. This is especially the case given that the early psychoanalytic schools were operating at a time prior to the codification of scientific method (notably by Karl Popper in 1934 with ‘The Logic of Scientific Discovery’) and are thus precluded from conforming to it. These schools were populated by doctors, not philosophers. They were all committed to rigorous validation of their theories. To dismiss their work as irrelevant because it does not conform to a standard that did not exist at the time is unfair and counter-productive.

Doing so would seem to undermine the validity of qualitative methodologies and of rational inquiry. Yet scientific method leaves plenty of room for these approaches to contribute to knowledge. As Popper emphasised (and lived), it is the task of philosophy and the more speculative disciplines to run ahead of strictly scientific knowledge.  Their findings will never be as convincing as those of the empirical disciplines, but they still form an important component of our knowledge base.

Returning to my main argument, I’m sure psychiatrists, with both medical and existential training, do good work. You should take drugs if such a professional recommends it. But on a discursive level, we should not be in a hurry to reduce the complexity of the human condition to merely a matter of chemicals. 

Australia is an existentially impoverished nation. We have very little art, culture, literature or philosophy to speak of. In this context, I feel there is a risk that colloquial understandings of depression as chemical imbalance will prevent people from seeking existential education in cases where it would be appropriate, and undermine attempts to bring such existential matters into the spotlight in Australia. 

We are, thankfully, a nation of happy-go-lucky larrikins. But this simplistic approach we have to life, while generally effective, leaves us lost when we do suffer an existential crisis. When ‘shit gets real’ in the case of someone with mental illness, we have few ways of culturally dealing with it other than to say ‘woah; that person is messed up, something must be wrong with them.’ This is precisely othering, and precisely what Foucault was on about in ‘The Birth of the Clinic’. I am more than happy to re-read Hegel, Lacan and Levinas if Smit and Bennett will do me the turn of reading Foucault and Frankl.

If you are struggling with feelings of depression or anxiety, contact lifeline (13 11 14), ANU counselling (6125 2442) or your GP. 

Comments

  1. Your apology sounds more like excuses rather than sincere regret. I hope you’re sincere but your language doesn’t convey that message.

    “Drugs are the realm of doctors, and drugs have an important role to play in improving mental health. But surely sometimes an existential treatment is also needed, or even principally needed.”

    Where do you get this presumption that drug prescribing doctors place no value on actually talking to patients? An average psychiatric consultation is 50 minutes…do you think they just write a script then stare at the walls for 45 minutes? Do you think that it requires 7 years of specialty training just to learn what drugs are best? You do not demonstrate sufficient understanding of the issue to offer educated judgement.

    “While case data is certainly not of the same knowledge status as modern empirical studies, they do have a degree of validity as evidence.”

    No. No. No. No. Evidence doesn’t work that way. Evidence is either valid or invalid. Any other use of evidence is pseudo science deceit. Stick with opinion or evidence, if you try to blur the two you are deceitful or ignorant. It’s beyond an opinion piece when you make pseudo science recommendations that question modern science. You are attacking a branch of science and trying to use a shield of ignorance as your defence from supporting evidence.

    The complete absence of modern scientists from your research list is concerning.

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  2. Tom

    Thanks for your comment, but I'm tired of you reading my pieces inattentively, and treating me like an idiot. Philosophy of science and the theory of knowledge happen to be two of my main areas.

    You are making out that anything that is not strictly scientific is utterly invalid. This is simply not the case. Randomised controlled tests under laboratory conditions are the gold standard of knowledge. That fact does not annihilate the importance of other forms of knowledge, and in particular of approaches to knowledge (methodologies). To argue that would obliterate the possibility of ever being able to form a hypothesis to test in the first place. It is the role of those disciplines still contained within the rationalist tradition but removed by degrees from science to run ahead of science and establish streams that can then be empirically investigated. I concede that this does not constitute a 'fact' the way an laboratory experiment does, but when you're talking about things that aren't yet accessible to empirics it seems highly counter-productive to disregard well intentioned, heavily researched and empirically validated in bronze-standard ways evidence, especially when people's 'selves' are at stake. This is what I mean by different ‘degrees’ of evidence.

    Regardless, I am not doing science, I am doing philosophy. I state that in the rejoinder. Philosophy and qualitative methodologies have a very substantial role to play in our acquisition of knowledge. Do you claim that the entire discipline of sociology is a farce? Is economics invalid because it cannot do prospective tests?

    What I am doing is far from what religion does. I am arguing logically sound positions.

    I urge to actually go and read the logic of scientific discovery, which sets the benchmark in this area. Knowledge is more than science, and reason is more than empirics. Specifically on the role of philosophy and other non-scientific disciplines you might consider Popper’s ‘The demarcation between science and metaphysics’ in his ‘conjectures and refutations’.

    Your position seems to me to be will-full blindness. You admit that cognitive therapies like counselling have a role to play while arguing that anything without a strictly empirical basis is invalid. How are these two positions commensurate? Values are the fundamental building blocks of counselling and values are not empirically accessible.

    I don't think that drug prescribing doctors don't place a value on talking to patients. But you yourself brought up the issue of professionalism. What training to GPs have in existentialism? Absolutely Zero. They can talk all they want—that doesn't make it good talk. Psychiatrists have a substantial education in these areas—that’s why I encourage people to listen to psychiatrists. A doctor and a psychiatrist are two different things.

    This is all largely irrelevant however, because I am not worried about doctors. People keep flogging this horse. How many times must I say that my worry is about laypeople and their understanding of themselves but especially of their mentally ill friends. This is a discursive problem, not a professional one.

    And for the record, I have been interested in this issue for years and have read extensively in this area from the perspective of psychology, philosophy, neuroscience and psychiatry. I am not hiding behind any veil of ignorance. People keep saying that my theories aren't empirically valid, that they fly in the face of 'modern medicine', without answering any of the perfectly valid logical questions that I raise. The reference to modern science is particularly misleading I feel, because it would make it seem that this is a settled question in psychotherapy, when in fact significant proportions of the psychiatric community have reservation about drugs. But let me stop here and let the psychiatrists and their empirical tests fight my battle for me, I'm sure you'd appreciate that:

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  3. ‘Empirically grounded clinical interventions: cognitive-behavioural therapy progresses through a multi-dimensional approach to clinical science’ Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapy, Vol. 30, No. 01, 2002, pp. 3-9: http://journals.cambridge.org.virtual.anu.edu.au/action/displayFulltext?type=1&pdftype=1&fid=95636&jid=BCP&volumeId=30&issueId=01&aid=95635

    A particularly apt quote: “It is suggested here that evidence based medicine (EBM) needs to be seen in context; that is, as an approach that almost exclusively focuses on just one of the dimensions that have been and are crucial to the further development of Cognitive-Behavioural Treatments (CBT). EBM is particularly well suited to the development of Biological approaches to treatment, where treatments (and treatment development) are largely atheoretical. However, different considerations apply to CBT, where validated theory and linked research
    studies are key factors.”

    Empirically Grounded Clinical Interventions; Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapy, Vol. 30, No. 1, 2002: http://journals.cambridge.org.virtual.anu.edu.au/action/displayFulltext?type=1&pdftype=1&fid=95634&jid=BCP&volumeId=30&issueId=01&aid=95633

    Another: “At the same time, there is a co-existing uneasiness that something was missing, and that EBM promised more than it was able to deliver. There is a sense of scientific sterility that goes with this approach. It does not seem to be a complete formula for making sense of the existing literature, and it falls far short of what is needed for the scientific development of our ability to understand and treat psychological distress.”

    Comparative efficacy of cognitive therapy and pharmacotherapy in the treatment of depressed outpatients; Cognitive Therapy and Research, March 1977, Vol. 1, Issue. 1, pp. 17-37: http://link.springer.com.virtual.anu.edu.au/article/10.1007/BF01173502

    The empirical status of cognitive-behavioural therapy: a review of meta-analysis; Clinical Psychology Review 26, (2006), 17-31: http://data.psych.udel.edu/abelcher/Shared%20Documents/5%20Psychotherapy%20and%20Preventive%20Intervention%20(42)/Butler,%202006.pdf

    ‘Meaning-centred counselling: a cognitive-behavioural approach to logotherapy’, The International Forum for Logotherapy, 1997, 20, 85-94: http://www.ignaciodarnaude.com/espiritualismo/Wong,Meaning-centered%20counseling%20.pdf

    ‘Logotheory and Logotherapy: challenges, opportunities and some empirical findings,’ The International Forum for Logotherapy, 1994, 17, 47-55: http://garyreker.ca/1994%20Reker%20Logotheory%20and%20logotherapy.pdf

    ‘Logotherapy as an adjunctive treatment for chronic combat-related PTSD: a meaning-based intervention’; American Journal of Psychotherapy, Vol. 60, No. 2, 2006: http://www.choixdecarriere.com/pdf/5671/47-2010.pdf

    And one on the empirical shortcomings of the philosophical approaches (I do read people who disagree with me, after all): Empirical Research and Logotherapy, Psychological reports 2003, 93, 307-319: http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.2003.93.1.307

    For an introduction to the philosophical arguments I make, please see Michel Foucault, ‘The Birth of the Clinic’, widely regarded as one of the landmark achievements of sociology in the 20th century. You can get a summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_the_Clinic

    For something from the medical profession tracking these matters, you could read Psycho-pharmacologist Dr Peter Kramer: ‘Listening to Prozac’: http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Prozac-Landmark-Antidepressants-Remaking/dp/0140266712

    You might also be interested in ‘Taking America off Drugs: why behavioural therapy is more effective for treating ADHD, OCD, Depression and other psychological problems,’ (2007) by Stephen Ray Flora, PhD, Psychology Department at Youngstown University: http://www.sunypress.edu/p-4478-taking-america-off-drugs.aspx

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  4. "You are making out that anything that is not strictly scientific is utterly invalid."

    No. I am suggesting that science has certain rules and if you want to dabble in science then you have to play by the rules. I’m not suggesting that you’re an idiot, you are clearly well educated, but just because you’re educated in one field doesn’t make you qualified to cast comment in another.

    "Regardless, I am not doing science, I am doing philosophy."

    You may be aiming for philosophy but your language is blurring philosophy and science into pseudo science. If you want to be critiqued as a philosopher then you can’t make scientific judgements.

    My greatest fear is that you would discourage a vulnerable person from seeking treatment. By attacking drugs and the prescription process you are casting doubt over the current best practice medicine. As mental health is still a taboo subject people are often unwilling to seek treatment. Thus, any criticism of the treatment process risks turning people away. For this reason, all criticism of the treatment process should be done scientifically.

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  5. Thanks Tom. I understand your concerns, but I have to disagree. The profession doesn't think science adequately explains a great deal of pertinent subject material. My article was trying to bring that subject material (things like cognitive therapy) back into the limelight. I'm also not convinced mental health is taboo anymore.

    I'm also not sure your statement about blurring philosophy and science is accurate, but I don't have the capacity to engage with that at this time in semester. I don't think I make scientific claims, so I am not dabbling in it. I make logical arguments. There is a discipline called 'philosophy of science' that makes significant use of scientific language and knowledge to further unscientific claims (or as yet unscientific claims). Science follows on its heels. Philosophy is essentially just logical analysis. I don't think you can separate that from the scientific process even if you can separate it from a factual claim (i.e. the end result of science).

    My intention is to highlight the logical inadequacies of an area of science (i.e. neuro-chemistry can't explain xyz). To exclude this on the grounds that I don't have a scientific explanation is fallacious.

    In any case, I think this argument is done. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I certainly think your point of view is valid, and I hope you think the same of mine.
    Mark

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  6. If you're too tired to debate then I won't press the point, but I do think there is value in pointing out which statements blur the lines of science:

    “Many neuroses arise from personality factors that cannot be medicated away but must be talked out” – statements of science of psychology and medicine.

    “This kind of soul-searching is difficult if our feelings are obfuscated by chemicals, because communication between the unconscious and conscious elements of our psyche is then inhibited. In this way, drugs can actually impede the psychological processes required for healing.” – statements of psychiatry.

    “If a depressed person accepts a period of dysfunction in order to rigorously engage with their neurosis they will often emerge a far more functional person than the crippled one they are on medication.” - statements of psychiatry.

    These are all statements of science without evidence of science.

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    Replies
    1. I agree entirely with Mark's argument and I think that Tom's comments are a little naive. Sadly, science in the area of medicine has become hopelessly entangled with moneymaking and, as a result, quite a lot of scientific work is either not done or not published, leaving only that which supports the use of various profitable medicines to stand as what Tom calls 'evidence of science'. My comment of course is also not supported by 'evidence of science'. I also recognise that there are times when mental ailments can be helped by medicine, but I am very aware that prescriptions for anti-depressants are regularly handed out to people who do not need them. Again I cannot support this argument with 'evidence of science', so, of course, it is obviously rubbish.

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